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Authors hit by bad reviews on Goodreads before review copies are even circulated (thebookseller.com)
mrweasel 31 minutes ago [-]
Online reviews in general are pretty useless these days. We know that sites like Trustpilot will take down negative reviews if you pay them, Amazon reviews are mostly bots and some sites have weird incentives for users to write reviews.

E.g. take reviews of business on Google, there's no link to actual purchases, but you get a star and a "Local guide level 4" or something if you do enough reviews. A family member runs a consulting business, he has a 2-star review, the only review. It's not made by a customer, just some random dude. What it looks like is that this dude just walked around reviewing business after business, based on look of their office perhaps. He's not customer of ANY of them. So now multiple business are trying to have these negative reviews removed, Google doesn't give a shit, so what are these reviews actually worth?

Most people who write reviews aren't exactly the most mentally stable people either. If you're not getting something in return, most people won't write a review, that just leave the nut jobs.

dinfinity 10 minutes ago [-]
> Online reviews in general are pretty useless these days.

It depends on the contents and the number of them. If multiple/many negative reviews for something all mention a similar defect, you can be pretty sure it is an actual issue with the thing. It is then up to you to determine if the thing is still worth your time/money.

I will say that for some things the motivations of the reviewers are something to take into account especially. For book reviews on Goodreads I've found that animosity towards the author causes heavy overstating of the 'defects' of a book.

sidewndr46 15 minutes ago [-]
My parents live in what is still a relatively rural area, it's unlikely you'd ever send something to their address on accident. They perpetually get kids toys shipped to their house. Address and name is correct each time. The package is clearly from Amazon. I'm relatively certain it is some part of weird review scam process. It's become a common enough thing that they just hand out the toys to who ever has young kids in the family.
bluGill 10 minutes ago [-]
If you want to find a lawyer there are various slander/libel laws on the books. However each country has different laws and in most cases only lawyers win if you bother.
bbarnett 5 minutes ago [-]
Online reviews in general are pretty useless these days. We know that sites like Trustpilot will take down negative reviews if you pay them

I've had multiple Amazon negative reviews vanish over the years. Often, it happens a few weeks after posting. I've heard it's people bribing Amazon reps to do so, under the auspices of "bad review". I've even occasionally noticed others on Amazon, in reviews, complaining that their last review went missing.

Really sad.

dev_l1x_be 18 minutes ago [-]
Funnily enough this is the perfect usecase for a blockchain. We could get rid off both the issue of removed reviews and the illegitimate reviews.
threetonesun 12 minutes ago [-]
Funny enough this is the perfect use case for the old web, where people just review things on their blog and you either know them or trust them from previous content.
margalabargala 16 minutes ago [-]
Right, because it will be impossible to remove lying reviews, and they will all be illegitimate?
automatic6131 12 minutes ago [-]
Because you'd have to pay to leave a review. And maybe get paid to leave a review by people that pay to upvote that review.

I see absolutely no way this incentive structure could be misused, after all, people wouldn't use bots to spam reviews out to hopefully farm upvotes, would they? Nope <:o)

alexpotato 1 hours ago [-]
A few years back, inspired by Derek Sivers [0], I decided to just make my own filterable book review list [1].

It was both a fun challenge (using vanilla JS to render) and has been fun to share with friends, Twitter mutuals etc.

Plus, people know it's MY reviews so if they like my suggestions/tweeting/poasting/etc, they know the review is from me and not some bot.

0 - https://sive.rs/book

1 - https://alexpotato.com/books/?xl=hn

phkahler 6 minutes ago [-]
>> Plus, people know it's MY reviews

One way to look at what you've done is authenticated the source of your reviews. They're not anonymous people behind a fake username.

quirino 37 minutes ago [-]
Sivers' list has introduced me to many great books. I can recommend "Sum: Forty Tales from the Afterlives - by David Eagleman" which is the fourth book on the page you linked.
NelsonMinar 34 minutes ago [-]
Goodreads is a case study in the natural monopoly of social networks. The product has been terrible for years now, with Amazon investing the bare minimum to keep it online and one slight design change every few years. But competitors like TheStoryGraph can't get traction because all the people are still on Goodreads.
PokerFacowaty 1 minutes ago [-]
Off the top of my head there's two things that rub me the wrong way about Goodreads.

One is there isn't a separate section for professional reviews (Polish movie/TV site Filmweb has that), so that right off the bat the first comment might be that someone doesn't like what the book is even about, it's a 1-star, liked by 15 people.

Two is they closed their API completely, so there's no way you can get any book info from their DB, not with limits and/or authorization, not if you pay, just not at all.

mslansn 5 minutes ago [-]
I keep reading complaints about how bad it is and I just don’t see it. The last redesign is tremendously slow though.
jrockway 33 minutes ago [-]
This kind of exposes how valuable reviews actually are -- likely not very. People like reviews, but some person you don't know using some unknown set of criteria to evaluate a product turns out to not actually offer any value. Taking the mean of this data ("4.5 stars on Goodreads!") also doesn't improve the quality of the data.
fennecbutt 22 minutes ago [-]
I'd disagree. Real, honest reviews are genuinely useful to me as a consumer particularly if the review outlines what type of person the reviewer is, too.
bluGill 4 minutes ago [-]
That is the whole point of the review scams - often I'm not an expert and I know it. I need some widget, and there are 10 choices. I want someone independent to review all 10 choices and tell me which is best so I don't waste my money buying a bad one. Lacking someone with the money and time to buy all 10, at least seeing the reviews of someone who has one is a suggestion on if that one is really as good as they say. Though if someone only has one they tend to review it well because nobody wants to admit they bought something that wasn't the best.

If the reviewer is consumer reports they for years were this independent reviews. (I've heard accusations they are no longer as independent - make your own decisions) They often don't know enough about the product to understand why long term the more expensive one might be better as opposed to just overpriced, so not perfect, but still better than buying everything yourself.

kmfrk 11 minutes ago [-]
The combination of a terribly run social platform together with a crippled API that can't be used to audit it through third parties is an all too familiar story by now.
rurban 2 hours ago [-]
Frequent experience with movies also. letterboxd is rife with ratings on movies, which didn't pre-screen at all yet. Most of them by paid shills. A24 being the worst, but Warner also amongst them. And lb fails to hit them.

Same on IMDB, and even Rotten Tomatoes. There's a lot of money in movies. But books?

snarf21 36 minutes ago [-]
The same exact thing happens on BoardGameGeek for board games. A game is announced and people rate it 1 out of 10 because they hate the theme or the it has a digital app to help you play or ..... The game isn't released and no one has a copy besides the publisher.
kmfrk 4 minutes ago [-]
Guess you could say it happens everywhere by default - absent any checks and balances. Steam had terrible review bombing issues, but they finally decided to do something about it far too many years too late.

... But when you're an incumbent that's likely to be around for at least a quarter of a decade with a sizeable monopoly, later really is better than never.

soco 1 hours ago [-]
I was shocked to read the new rules for the Academy Awards jury members: newly they must watch the movies before giving their verdict. As in, before they didn't have to...
bluGill 41 seconds ago [-]
Perhaps in the past people had ethics and so it didn't need to be stated. I'm surprised they need it in the rules, as I would expect since they pick the jury they pick people with ethics. But then I'll admit complete ignorance to how they do anything (and no care either since I'm not a movie person)

Online reviews don't have enough control over their reviewers and so it only takes a small number of unethical people to cause a big problem.

1 hours ago [-]
hobs 2 hours ago [-]
Right, but those are positive reviews.
rurban 1 hours ago [-]
No, sometimes they are also brigading competitors. Lot's of 0 star ratings also en masse.
bell-cot 34 minutes ago [-]
> There's a lot of money in movies. But books?

Generally less money, yes. But not all motives are financial. And there are loads of conflict, drama, and emotions in many parts of the writing world.

ableal 21 minutes ago [-]
Spy Magazine in its time (mid 80s to mid 90s) had an amusing section titled "Logrolling in our time". Usually featuring mutually favorable blurbs by pairs of writers.
saintblasphemer 1 hours ago [-]
Why is the book available for review on the site if review copies haven't yet been sent out? Isn't that just asking for trolling?
patcon 51 minutes ago [-]
In some ways, it's just a peak into existing corruption, perpetrated by those who couldn't even be bothered to make it believable.

Likely a script that looks for the first x reviews and then starts generating fake ones, and some party that is just lazy. There's probably a market somewhere to short.

sidewndr46 12 minutes ago [-]
The general term used to describe this business practice is 'shakedown'.
bityard 1 hours ago [-]
That appears to be the unspoken thrust of the piece once you've waded through all of the mock surprise and intrigue.
Freak_NL 1 hours ago [-]
I guess authors and publishers do like being able to show that a certain title is forthcoming.
nemomarx 1 hours ago [-]
And it lets people add it to reading list plans early etc. But you could probably have a read only entry with a countdown without enormous efforts?
bityard 1 hours ago [-]
Can they do that without allowing third party reviews before the publication date?
add-sub-mul-div 1 hours ago [-]
Because it's being run by Amazon employees who hate their jobs rather than hobbyists who love books?
boesboes 1 hours ago [-]
How is that rellevant, this just show how broken reviews are. How much of a scamm it is
scrapheap 30 minutes ago [-]
When it comes to books I mostly ignore the reviews on sites like Goodreads. I'm much more likely to pick books based on recommendations from friends, or because they've been nominated for one or more awards. At a pinch I'm even more likely to pick a book based on it's publisher than I am to base the choice on Goodreads reviews.
nkrisc 1 hours ago [-]
> Long-time romance author Milly Johnson said: “I had a one-star rating for a book that hadn’t even been seen by my copy editor. When I raised it with Goodreads they wouldn’t interfere as they said the reviewer had a perfect right to predict if they’d enjoy it or not. I’m afraid at that point I washed my hands of them as a serious review site that should have some code of conduct. We all get bad reviews but at least we should expect any review to be fair."

Is Goodreads not a review site but just a soapbox for readers? What kind of serious review site would allow reviews where the reviewer simply speculates whether they would like something or not? Seems strange Goodreads would allow these kinds of reviews, it completely undermines any credibility their ratings might have.

Does anyone take Amazon review scores seriously?

JTbane 1 minutes ago [-]
[delayed]
mingus88 1 hours ago [-]
For a long time, Amazon reviews could be somewhat useful if you ignored all the 5 and 1 star reviews and only looked at verified buyers.

But Amazon allows sellers to swap different products in under an existing listing so you don’t even know anymore if the review is for what you are buying. This allows sellers to cheat. It’s insanity.

It reminds me of the phone network. It’s so riddled with bad actors that entire generations now have been trained to never pick up the phone.

Why would a network operator allow caller ID to be so easily spoofed? For abusive callers to operate unrestricted? Even the audio quality of the calls seems to have gotten so bad in my parents rural backwater.

I don’t get it. Is engagement the only metric that matters?

ableal 10 minutes ago [-]
> Why would a network operator allow caller ID to be so easily spoofed?

Our protocols are descended from the postal system - the sender is a bit of text written on the wrapper.

Certifying that is out of the scope of delivering to the addressee. It would involve back and forth with an authority - e.g. showing someone your id before being allowed to post a letter.

sidewndr46 10 minutes ago [-]
it also changes your purchase history when they do this, which is certainly interesting. There have been a number of times when I want to purchase something again, then go to my order history. The 'product' is now something like a hair accessory targeted at teen girls.
nyeah 59 minutes ago [-]
"Is engagement the only metric that matters?" Yes.
nemomarx 1 hours ago [-]
I think technically good reads is a social platform micro blog site now, so soapbox is about right.
mingus88 1 hours ago [-]
Goodreads was a useful tool to track the books I’d read to my kids every night. Nice to have a log book of what I’d already read backed by a real database of ISBNs

Feels similar to calorie tracking apps now. Having a database of food UPCs with nutritional data is actually useful. Then capitalism comes along and juices it for social media engagement until the site is riddled with junk features and paywalls

I guess there will always be market for a hobbies to make their own trackers.

1 hours ago [-]
soco 1 hours ago [-]
Goodreads used to be a good site. Then big tech came in and with it enshittification. I use StoryGraph lately to record my books, but I wouldn't recommend their reviews either, or in general any reviews - everything will be between 3 and 4 stars in the end, regardless of genre or quality.
izacus 36 minutes ago [-]
Well, those sites are also filled with 5 star reviews for books that won't be on sale for 6 months+, so it kinda balances out, doesn't it.

Same with Reddit and other places - seeing bunch of suspiciously positive "reviews" months before the book is even on sale.

Freak_NL 1 hours ago [-]
> When I raised it with Goodreads they wouldn’t interfere as they said the reviewer had a perfect right to predict if they’d enjoy it or not.

Ah yes, the illustrious omniprescient reviewer.

I've published a novelette a few months ago on a large website with user ratings (ahem, as a novice writer of smut whose nom-de-plume shall remain a carefully guarded secret). What is interesting is that in the first fortnight there were some people giving a bad rating because, ostensibly (and judging from some comments), they just don't like that specific type of story, whereas in the long tail the average rating climbs upwards as people find your story using tags and keywords, etc, and then judge only the writing and story itself, rather than its subgenre, setting, or premise.

I wonder if real books reviewed on Goodreads follow that pattern too. Those early reviews can have an outsized influence.

sidewndr46 9 minutes ago [-]
If the book was about clairvoyants, I could see them allowing the review to be added before the books publication date.
pjc50 55 minutes ago [-]
You've highlighted an additional problem, roving bands of morality police (various colours) who go on campaigns against books they've never read and authors they don't like.
MBCook 36 minutes ago [-]
I remember this happening on Amazon more than 20 years ago. People reviewing books from authors they like (or hate) long before they were available to buy.
patcon 46 minutes ago [-]
Trolls from the Russian federation is interesting. Maybe high bang for buck in destroying livelihoods and cultural capital, re: adversarial statescraft
consumer451 22 minutes ago [-]
> cultural capital

This is a significant factor, imo. Many great modern Russian artists are banned by the state. Meanwhile, the current imperialist Russian state is a group of sandcastle kickers running wild.

I look forward to a day when the Russian people, and the world, have a Russian government that works for things other than destruction.

lupusreal 11 minutes ago [-]
Reminder to use LibraryThing.
A_D_E_P_T 55 minutes ago [-]
Goodreads is the worst. At this point, Amazon should just shut it down.

Amazon reviews are unironically better, because you can see if somebody actually bought the book or not, and Amazon has very sophisticated anti-Astroturfing measures. (Good luck getting your friends and family to leave good reviews of your book -- they'll catch it and delete them.)

Goodreads is infested with marketing and publishing cliques and a lot of their reviews are fake or paid for. It has never been more over.

cratermoon 27 minutes ago [-]
Do you trust Amazon to be honest and accurate about who bought the product?
A_D_E_P_T 8 minutes ago [-]
I buy lots of books and write lots of reviews on Amazon, and mine always say "verified purchase." I also see other reviews which were solicited by giving readers free copies (ARCs) a la Goodreads, and they never say "verified purchase." (And some reviews that were written by people who never read the book at all...) So yeah. Unless you have evidence to the contrary -- which would be evidence of a crime -- I think they can be trusted on this point.
mattgreenrocks 45 minutes ago [-]
I think the thing I have the most difficulty with in this discussion is that it seems virtually unthinkable to stop taking semi-anonymous ratings seriously? I know there will be intense loss aversion to such a crazy idea.

But sometimes the comment section is just a bunch of people with axes to grind.

SkipperCat 1 hours ago [-]
I'm probably going to get downvoted for this, but most if the Internet should not be anonymous. Anonymity has led to bots, awful cases of trolling and abuse. There should definitely be ways to communicated peer-to-peer anonymously, but posting on Social Media should not be one of them.
pjc50 58 minutes ago [-]
People will post terrible lies in national newspapers under their own photograph and byline. Accountability is .. not evenly distributed.

Environments where reprisals are possible simply have different dysfunctionality from ones where they generally aren't. And you can see how catastrophic suddenly turning on reprisals is, known as "doxxing".

zimpenfish 41 minutes ago [-]
> People will post terrible lies in national newspapers under their own photograph and byline.

As an extreme example, (multiple) POTUS have gone on national TV and flat out lied to the US without consequence.

yjftsjthsd-h 25 minutes ago [-]
Well, you're posting anonymously on a social media site to claim that people shouldn't be allowed to post anonymously on a social media sites. If you're not even willing to do it, why should anyone else?

Also, there are social media sites with real name policies; in what way are they better?

jfengel 1 hours ago [-]
I'm all for anonymity, but anonymous identities should be taken with extreme skepticism.

I'd really like to see a hierarchy of trust. Get some certs signed by a reputable bank who has seen you in person, high trust. Self-signed certs, much less trust. Completely anonymous, you get basically shadowbanned; people who want it can go looking for it.

The Internet is an information flood (and so much worse now that we have LLMs). Filtering it has always been the key challenge. We should be able to filter on source, while still allowing people to say whatever it is they want. We just don't have to read it.

tiborsaas 26 minutes ago [-]
You've just introduced some new problems of scaling up identity theft and getting people otherwise uninterested in social media sell their account to spammers.
smokel 1 hours ago [-]
Here, have an upvote from this anonymous coward.
speed_spread 1 hours ago [-]
There is a zone of shade between full anonymity and exact identification. There could be a service that provide time limited anonymous tokens that still provide guarantee that you're not a bot. So you can claim you're a real person without having to reveal _who_ you are.
swayvil 47 minutes ago [-]
I agree.

What's more, governance processes for the forum shouldn't be anonymous at all. I mean flagging, voting, moderator action etc.

That's arguably the most important conversation here. Most in need of illumination by public discussion.

But so often (in these social media forums) it is taken one step beyond pseudonymity to full anonymity. Hidden from all eyes.

Why? I never heard a good argument.

z0r 14 minutes ago [-]
Should people's votes be public in general?
hoseja 22 minutes ago [-]
>email from Goodreads explaining that it advises authors to "refrain from confronting users who give their books a low rating"

Okay that's bullshit. Let them duke it out!

encom 1 hours ago [-]
I think at this point, any sort of online review aggregators have been ruined for good - from Amazon to Imdb to Google. All of them. Find a professional reviewer you trust, whose taste aligns with your own. For me, I like The Critical Drinker. Most of what he recommends, I like. Except Arcane, that was horrible.
CoastalCoder 32 minutes ago [-]
Arcane wasn't bad, but I really liked how the villains were fleshed out as complete humans with vices, virtues, and relatable motivations.
voidUpdate 1 hours ago [-]
Out of interest, what did you dislike about Arcane?
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