This stuff is why I am so cynical about modern software development management. Bill Atkinson wrote QuickDraw, a masterpiece of low level programming, but also had a very solid grasp about what it was for right down to the UX it was to enable, and as shown here how the UX evolved with user testing. These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
WillAdams 9 hours ago [-]
Yeah, it was an amazing team, and it's well-worth reviewing the stories at Folklore.org --- a good starting point is this retrospective:
He also wrote Hypercard, and I'd really like to see a modern successor which had the attributes:
- stand-alone desktop app (and/or app for iPad on app store)
- simple syntax (block diagramming like Scratch/Blockly seems a natural fit)
- simple creation/arrangement of standard GUI elements (so that localization and accessibility still work)
- being opensource (still feeling burned by having donated to Runtime Revolution/Livecode's opensource effort)
(so basically a modern, opensource alternative to VisualBasic, and yes, I keep asking about this --- there are lots of programs in this space, but none are quite as easy/simple as to have gotten me past the hurdle of download/install/actually try making something/being successful at it, and I freely admit I'm a mediocre programmer with not enough time who is bogged down on his current project....)
jazzyjackson 6 hours ago [-]
Bill has a great interview with a podcast called Triangulation, couple hours covering all kinds of subjects
> These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
I don't know about that, but in many/most organisations it's actively discouraged so you simply don't see it. That naturally occurs in large corporations where individuals have very narrow responsibilities, but I've also been surprised to find it happening even in the smallest of startups on occasion.
qgin 2 hours ago [-]
It is very hard to be allowed to push or invent anything new in an area that isn’t your job description.
yjftsjthsd-h 7 hours ago [-]
>These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
His software was so strong, it made the Macintosh what it was at the time, and indirectly shaped Windows and Linux’s UI to either imitate or showboat against it. The magnitude of his contributions to everything we think was normal now can’t even be stated. Apple drifts around more but the products still have a lot of his DNA in it.
JKCalhoun 9 hours ago [-]
Agree. I hate to see Bill and team not get the credit they deserve. There is the idea (so famously put forward by Bill Gates) that Windows and Lisa (Mac) both ripped off Xerox — and I think that is misleading at best. As you can see in the Polaroids, Lisa took the lead from Xerox but then charted their own course. (Windows, it is said, then copied that.)
amelius 4 hours ago [-]
And then in a twist of the plot, Steve Jobs said "great artists steal" ...
amelius 5 hours ago [-]
> QuickDraw (...) These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
Reminds me of that guy who built a feature-complete web-version of Photoshop.
Features are planned in sprints. Add a widget here, remove a widget there. We end up with no design principles or vision, just a Frankenstein monster of junk.
His process sounds a lot like (dare I say) waterfall. Spending a long time in the design phase until you know what you want to build.
Tabular-Iceberg 1 hours ago [-]
From the video and what I've read at folklore.org it sounds more like what Agile purports to be, writing software in a tight iteration loop, trying things, getting feedback and adapting to the changing needs of the project.
I think where Agile goes wrong is people thinking that you don't need someone who is actually experienced and good at writing software like this (like Atkinson), you can just pick a random individual off the streets who a lot of the time can't even code, and have them take a theoretical course about writing software like this.
snowwrestler 9 hours ago [-]
What? No it’s not, spanning a huge range like this is the prototypical skill set for a startup founder.
It’s crazy to post a take like this on the website of Ycombinator, whose entire business model revolves around finding and elevating exactly those types of people.
skeeter2020 8 hours ago [-]
I don't get the connection between the skillset of a startup founder and someone like Bill. While Jobs showcases taking something from vision to product, your Wozniaks and Atkinsons solved the countless problems at steps along the entire path of the journey. These seem like very complimentary but distinct skillsets. I interpreted the OP as stating there's a lack of the latter, but they didn't comment on the former.
snowwrestler 8 minutes ago [-]
Every startup goes through a phase where there are very few technical people spanning a huge range of responsibilities. Not all founders or early employees are Steve Jobs. Many are like Bill Atkinson: a broadly talented person who shapes many aspects of a product in development.
While Apple was not a startup at the time Bill did his work there, the Mac project very much was a startup inside Apple.
xeonmc 5 hours ago [-]
Would you say if Bill is the Woz of software or if Woz is the Bill of hardware?
jdswain 2 hours ago [-]
Well Woz was pretty good at software too. He wrote a lot of the early Apple software, including Integer Basic (to write games) and the low level disk software, called RWTS for Read/Write Track/Sector.
oersted 10 hours ago [-]
I love the Computer History Museum (this is published on their channel).
The museum itself is not so special, but it's run by all these retired volunteer industry veterans that have incredible stories to tell, and they are such delightful and smart people. They were the ones at the front-lines when everything was starting.
jazzyjackson 6 hours ago [-]
There was a day they were demonstrating the first commercially available harddisk from 1956 [0], it would be one thing to see it behind glass but the volunteers had built an arduino interface to drive it and interface it to bring it back to life, and hearing them explain how everything works with the requisite enthusiasm was a great experience for a vintage computer nerd. That sucker is pneumatic !
Disclaimer: I'm a member of the Computer History Museum
My favorite part about the Computer History Museum is the events they hold occasionally where they have live interviews and demos from legendary figures in computing. Over the years I've been to events celebrating the 45th anniversary of the Xerox Alto (including a live demo of Smalltalk-76 run by Dan Ingalls on a Xerox Alto!), the 40th anniversary of the Apple Lisa, and the 40th anniversary of the original Apple Macintosh. There's also a chance to meet legendary figures in person. I've met and had conversations with Dan Ingalls, Yoshiki Ohshima (who is a long-time collaborator of Xerox PARC legend Alan Kay), Charles Simonyi (created the Bravo word processor at Xerox PARC, became wealthy at Microsoft, and founded Intentional Software), Marshall Kirk McKusick (BSD), David Ungar (created the Self programming language), and Donald Knuth (The Art of Computer Programming, Concrete Mathematics, TeX, and much more).
I'm also a fan of the museum's recorded interviews with legendary figures and the digital artifacts they have, including source code to historical projects.
One of the best parts about living near Silicon Valley, in my opinion, is being able to meet and converse with people who made significant contributions to computing, since many of them live in Silicon Valley. While the cost of living is a challenge (I'm a tenure-track professor who teaches CS and thus I don't have a FAANG salary, not to mention I don't get bonuses or stock grants), it's great being able to be in close proximity to the people who encouraged me to pursue a career in computing.
leoc 3 hours ago [-]
Is Steve Russell—the original LISP implementer and Spacewar! co-creator—still showing up these days?
Wild that drag and drop came so late in the development: only when the "Finder" was trying to solve user-initiated file copying operations.
smallduck 4 days ago [-]
To anyone who thought Apple simply copied what they called at Xerox Parc, check this one out.
ethan_smith 9 hours ago [-]
The Xerox influence was real but limited - Apple's team iterated extensively as shown in these polaroids, adding crucial innovations like drag-and-drop, pull-down menus, and the desktop metaphor that weren't in the original Alto/Star interfaces.
knuckleheadsmif 3 hours ago [-]
The desktop metaphor absolutely was in the Xerox Star and that was copied by the Lisa team (and carried over to the Mac) after they viewed it when Star was first announce. That’s well documented. The Star also had limited pull down menus mostly a single menu item on the top right of every window that was hamburger-like in design that had items in it.
The Xerox Development Environment (TAJO/XDE) was more windows like where windows were processes and shrunk down to the bottom of the screen when closed. Star was developed using Tajo but are completely separate systems with very different user interfaces. For example Tajo used cut/copy/paste and any window could be set overlapping where as Star use a MOVE, COPY where use selected the object pressed the verb action button, and then selected the destination (use that was modal!). Also Star choose to have non-overlapping tiled windows (except for modal dialogues & style sheets.) The windowing was changed in later versions to allow any window to overlap.
What’s even more confusing is that Xerox had lots of systems including smalltalk, interlisp, star, Cedar & Tajo at the time Lisa was released. They also had lots or prototypes systems including Rooms and the Alto for that matter.
Apple absolutely also did their own research and design that was unique. And in cases the duplicated earlier research but came to a different conclusion (for example the number of buttons on a mouse.)
I think Apple did more with direct manipulation than others did taking it to more extremes — but you can still see that in other earlier systems.
HarHarVeryFunny 5 hours ago [-]
In context those are just tweaks ... Xerox designed the entire WIMP (Windows, Icons, Mouse, Pointer) UI concept, including the bitmapped display it is based on, first commercial mouse, ethernet networking ...
Xerox's invention was visionary and pioneering. Apple's was just engineering iteration.
It's as if one company designed the automobile and you want to give outsized credit to someone else who added turn indicators.
mmmlinux 4 hours ago [-]
That is basically how cars have progressed though..
HarHarVeryFunny 3 hours ago [-]
Sure - there's a lot of value that can be added though iterative refinement and enhancement, but let's give credit for innovation where it is due.
skeezyboy 11 hours ago [-]
[dead]
nxobject 10 hours ago [-]
It looks like that these were actually generated on an Apple II driving the framebuffer-to-CRT subsystem of a Lisa.
JKCalhoun 9 hours ago [-]
Bill mentions a special card in the Apple II. My sense is that these were not interactive — merely static images generated on a computer to get a sense of real estate — and of course as talking points to replace hand-wavy gestures.
HarHarVeryFunny 5 hours ago [-]
I remember seeing the Lisa demoed at a computer show in London (c.1980) - and drawing a huge crowd. Still, it was slow and very expensive - 10,000 GBP back then, or around $50K today.
knuckleheadsmif 3 hours ago [-]
More likely late 82 or even 83 when you saw it.
HarHarVeryFunny 2 hours ago [-]
Could be :) This was it's first showing in the UK.
musicale 3 days ago [-]
Great video (recorded in 2022?) from Bill Atkinson himself, and a nice companion to Andy Hertzfeld's account at:
https://www.folklore.org/Joining_Apple_Computer.html
He also wrote Hypercard, and I'd really like to see a modern successor which had the attributes:
- stand-alone desktop app (and/or app for iPad on app store)
- simple syntax (block diagramming like Scratch/Blockly seems a natural fit)
- simple creation/arrangement of standard GUI elements (so that localization and accessibility still work)
- being opensource (still feeling burned by having donated to Runtime Revolution/Livecode's opensource effort)
(so basically a modern, opensource alternative to VisualBasic, and yes, I keep asking about this --- there are lots of programs in this space, but none are quite as easy/simple as to have gotten me past the hurdle of download/install/actually try making something/being successful at it, and I freely admit I'm a mediocre programmer with not enough time who is bogged down on his current project....)
https://twit.tv/shows/triangulation/episodes/361
I don't know about that, but in many/most organisations it's actively discouraged so you simply don't see it. That naturally occurs in large corporations where individuals have very narrow responsibilities, but I've also been surprised to find it happening even in the smallest of startups on occasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrice_Bellard ?
Reminds me of that guy who built a feature-complete web-version of Photoshop.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33334521
Features are planned in sprints. Add a widget here, remove a widget there. We end up with no design principles or vision, just a Frankenstein monster of junk.
His process sounds a lot like (dare I say) waterfall. Spending a long time in the design phase until you know what you want to build.
I think where Agile goes wrong is people thinking that you don't need someone who is actually experienced and good at writing software like this (like Atkinson), you can just pick a random individual off the streets who a lot of the time can't even code, and have them take a theoretical course about writing software like this.
It’s crazy to post a take like this on the website of Ycombinator, whose entire business model revolves around finding and elevating exactly those types of people.
While Apple was not a startup at the time Bill did his work there, the Mac project very much was a startup inside Apple.
The museum itself is not so special, but it's run by all these retired volunteer industry veterans that have incredible stories to tell, and they are such delightful and smart people. They were the ones at the front-lines when everything was starting.
[0] https://www.computerhistory.org/storageengine/first-commerci...
My favorite part about the Computer History Museum is the events they hold occasionally where they have live interviews and demos from legendary figures in computing. Over the years I've been to events celebrating the 45th anniversary of the Xerox Alto (including a live demo of Smalltalk-76 run by Dan Ingalls on a Xerox Alto!), the 40th anniversary of the Apple Lisa, and the 40th anniversary of the original Apple Macintosh. There's also a chance to meet legendary figures in person. I've met and had conversations with Dan Ingalls, Yoshiki Ohshima (who is a long-time collaborator of Xerox PARC legend Alan Kay), Charles Simonyi (created the Bravo word processor at Xerox PARC, became wealthy at Microsoft, and founded Intentional Software), Marshall Kirk McKusick (BSD), David Ungar (created the Self programming language), and Donald Knuth (The Art of Computer Programming, Concrete Mathematics, TeX, and much more).
I'm also a fan of the museum's recorded interviews with legendary figures and the digital artifacts they have, including source code to historical projects.
One of the best parts about living near Silicon Valley, in my opinion, is being able to meet and converse with people who made significant contributions to computing, since many of them live in Silicon Valley. While the cost of living is a challenge (I'm a tenure-track professor who teaches CS and thus I don't have a FAANG salary, not to mention I don't get bonuses or stock grants), it's great being able to be in close proximity to the people who encouraged me to pursue a career in computing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_dithering
The Xerox Development Environment (TAJO/XDE) was more windows like where windows were processes and shrunk down to the bottom of the screen when closed. Star was developed using Tajo but are completely separate systems with very different user interfaces. For example Tajo used cut/copy/paste and any window could be set overlapping where as Star use a MOVE, COPY where use selected the object pressed the verb action button, and then selected the destination (use that was modal!). Also Star choose to have non-overlapping tiled windows (except for modal dialogues & style sheets.) The windowing was changed in later versions to allow any window to overlap.
What’s even more confusing is that Xerox had lots of systems including smalltalk, interlisp, star, Cedar & Tajo at the time Lisa was released. They also had lots or prototypes systems including Rooms and the Alto for that matter.
Apple absolutely also did their own research and design that was unique. And in cases the duplicated earlier research but came to a different conclusion (for example the number of buttons on a mouse.)
I think Apple did more with direct manipulation than others did taking it to more extremes — but you can still see that in other earlier systems.
Xerox's invention was visionary and pioneering. Apple's was just engineering iteration.
It's as if one company designed the automobile and you want to give outsized credit to someone else who added turn indicators.
https://www.folklore.org/Busy_Being_Born.html
CHM seems to have multiple videos with Bill Atkinson. Now I need to watch the one about the Lisa source code!!